USA Chart Analysis, November 9, Dawn

November 7, 2016

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My friend Anton D’Abreu from Cycles of History has very kindly sent this chart analysis of transits to the chart of the United States on the day after the election.

There are many charts for the USA but this one is most commonly used — and has been shown to work well.

There are many charts for the USA but this one is most commonly used — and has been shown to work well.

The Sibly chart (Koch) is used. Only the USA chart is analysed. All dates 2016 unless specified otherwise. Transiting houses are marked 1H while natal houses are marked 1st H. Rounded-up transit orbs are for November 9, 4.30 am)

1) Pluto (2H) opposes the US Sun (7th H). This is one of the most dramatic transits in the USA’s 240 year history. It suggests the transformation or destruction of the way American values are perceived by the outside world (2 degrees)

2) Pluto (2H) squares the USA Saturn (10th H) This much tighter transit suggests the blocking of US goals and national mission by a conflict of values (0.36 degrees)

3) Neptune (3H) square the USA Uranus (6th H). This suggests strongly the disillusion felt in many cities concerning employment and the loss of production especially in sectors like heavy manufacturing (0.21 degrees) It also stationed retro exactly square the USA ASC/ 

4) Uranus (4H) square the USA Mars (7th H) EXACT at 10 minutes during the poll. This captures the rage in the Trump camp at the Washington establishment and the perceived manner in which the concerns of ordinary non-wealthy families and communities are ignored. More importantly it suggests that the elections may lead to America disengaging from its role in world affairs — a role that has been a principle in US foreign policy since 1944.

5) Uranus (4H) square the USA Mercury. Just look at the vitriolic election campaign to see outspoken attacks on both sides against the candidates or their party faithful. The most unusual and outspoken have been from the Trump camp and include its mantras: ‘lock her up’, ‘drain the swamp’ and ‘build the wall’ (2 degrees).

6) Saturn conjunct the Ascendant. This suggests difficulties and restrictions in governing the country – especially evident in the stalemating of many of Obama’s policies resulting from a Republican gridlock in Congress. Saturn’s aspect also implies a need for the country to face up to reality – something both candidates in different ways accuse their opponent of not doing. (3 degrees)

7) Jupiter (10H) conjuncts Saturn (10th H) suggests explosive issues confront the USA’s political institutions. A prime example is Trump’s claim that the election is rigged and that he may not respect the result. These statements are explosive and almost unprecedented in a country that prides itself on being the world’s pre-eminent democracy. (2 degrees)

Dawn in Washington DC on November 9.

Dawn in Washington DC on November 9.

The inner transits are not so clear but should give a more defined pointer to the election outcome albeit open to many more interpretations.

8) Mars (2H) conjuncts Pluto (2nd H) This is fury and anger about differences in national values. But by the day after election this transit has finished and Mars begins to conjunct the South Node. Read this whichever way you want – it either means Anger must be addressed so it disappears (Clinton wins) or Anger is directed at the new direction the country will take (Trump wins) (2.30 degrees)

9) Mars (2H) trines the MC. This surely implies a drive to change the direction the country is heading (1 degree)

10) Venus (1H) square the Moon (3rd H). American society is getting pulled apart in highly personal and emotional ways. Often the emotions are deeply held though the people concerned may find it difficult to truthfully articulate them (half a degree)

11) Venus square Neptune (9th H). In many quarters popular feeling is at odds with the government’s idealistic or relativist language. There is growing disillusion in the wake of Iraq, Afghanistan. Being the world’s saviour or hero is definitely out of fashion. Trump’s apparent disparagement of Mexicans and Muslims’s is another clear example. But these are not core issues at the voting booth – this transit is over.

12) Mercury (12H) square the Moon (3rd H) Popular feeling is at odds with much of the Media. Highly emotional speeches and hustings crowd reactions. (2 degrees)

13) Mercury (12 H) trine Mercury (8th ) There has probably never been an election which will be so much discussed by US citizens, by the US media and by the world media. (half a degree)

14) Sun (11H) conj 12th H cusp The focus on election fever will give way to reflection and perhaps something hidden will emerge to challenge the result.

15) The Moon conjuncts the USA’s Aquarius Moon as the polls open on November 8. By dawn in New York the Moon will have moved into the sign of Pisces. At 8.36 am on November 9 in New York the Moon will square the USA’s Uranus. There will be an unexpected outburst of emotions. At 10.55 am the Moon will oppose the North Node and at 2.36 pm square the Ascendant then at 6.08 pm square Mars.

Readers should be able to make their own minds about what the above chart transits imply as to the USA election winner. But the following points may be worth noting.

A) Pluto stationed Retro at 17.29 Capricorn within 3 degrees of opposing the USA Sun and squaring its Saturn. A double outer transit as close as that is highly likely to manifest.

B) Saturn hits 3 angle midpoints – it conjuncts the Moon/MC (1 degree) squares Mars/ASC 1 degree) and trines Venus/MC (one and a half degrees) which may suggest a Saturnian outcome.

C) Venus (the USA chart’s MC ruler) closely squares the Neptune/MC midpoint (0.06) square the Sun/ASC and trines Mercury/MC (both one degree)

Most importantly of all, as with the United Kingdom’s Brexit vote, the Trump upheaval (and conceivably win) is evidence of the explosive challenge the Uranus/Pluto cycle square from 2009 to 2020 is presenting the major ideology of our age – Postmodernism. Postmodernism and its sister relativism, along with the establishment literati who are its voice is being violently opposed by ‘ordinary’ people. Postmodernism will have to adapt to survive – and it will survive. Whether Trump wins this election or not the transits suggest a major revolution in American government and its role in the world at large.

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current affairs, news, politicians, politics, US, USA

71 comments

mimi said:

Hi Christina,
will read this article later in the day, but would like to draw your attention to an article by Bernadette Brady on astro.com. It is called ‘Standing in the radiance of Venus’ and deals with elections in the USA through the years.
Very enlightening and she even writes about this 2016 election in the end of this article.

There is nothing compared to the old masters of astrology when it comes to predicting victory or war !

mimi

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Christina said:

Yes indeed mimi, an excellent article.

Don’t you think though, that simply predicting win/lose is not really satisfactory? It seems to make small the huge forces at work. Turn it into a game almost.

Because of her chart, I’m inclined to think Clinton will win, but this election is, as Anton says, a revolutionary moment for America. It’s much much more than just another election — and it sits within the Uranus-Pluto square that has includes the Obama Presidency.

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Isy said:

The Uranus-Pluto square that defined Obama’s presidency was, I think, really the on-ramp for this devastating outcome. Obama put honey on the poison; the poisonous and destructive oligarchic corporatist structure waxed and grew fat while a mixed-race man who was capable of graceful words and actions sat on the throne, distracting us with occasional good deeds and efforts to implement a wee bit of damage control where it could be seen.

This election process has loosened enough soil, from the blatant corruption of the so-called Democratic primaries and the shocking doltery of the Republican clown-car of candidates, that when the metal hit the earth, what the plough turned up was exactly the crap that had been buried beneath it. (I wonder what Ceres is up to? Might look at that!)

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procreater said:

Doesn’t hrc have Chiron around 12 degrees? Look at that in relation to USA Saturn and Sun. Venus/Jupiter conj though – that’s good. Pity about the aforementioned Sun to Saturn. For the past thirty years they have been running under that sun-sat. Hopefully should trump win it may swing back to venus-jupiter.

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Margaret said:

Please tell me my Zodiac sign and my Ascendent.
I have born October 26 1976(40 years old),at 07:55 a.m,country Greece,town Khaniá.

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Christina said:

You can get your chart drawn up for free at astro.com.

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mike said:

Neither candidate has auspicious transits to their natal planets at this time, though Hillary is thought to have the better. She is assumed to be the victor by polling numbers, but the numbers are within or very close to the margin of error. The tense aspects you’ve provided further indicate that, regardless the outcome, there will be a winner in name only. Trouble ahead! Interesting too that the Inauguration chart (January 20, 2017) has Uranus-Pluto within 3*, the last hurrah of the enduring square, yet Jupiter will oppose Uranus and square Pluto for most of 2017.

I finally viewed “HyperNormalisation”, which is still available on youtube (select full-length version). Seems that post-truth will continue until the Jupiter-Saturn synode of 2020, just after both planets conjunct Pluto, and all three planets will have opposed USA’s natal Pluto, that post-truth either goes north or south.

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mike said:

Oops…should have said in the last sentence “all three planets conjunct USA’s natal Pluto…”.

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mike said:

My most sincere apologies to the nations of the world, as we in the USA now have President Trump starting January 20, 2017. A new fascism is upon us.

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Christina said:

Did not want to look into the abyss…. now we are hanging over it…. just horrified.

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Nancy said:

I am, too, along w/ lots of people I know. It’s hard to wrap my head around this one.

procreater said:

Sorry, but I strongly suspect your pov just like the majority of peeps is shaped and controlled by the msm and elites. it’s them who did not want him in as they might lose their position. It’s them who conducted operation fear against him. As far as your astrology goes you should study magi astrology. It was all there that hrc would lose, as sat is applying to Pluto, which has recently been joined by Jupiter, within 3 degrees and applying. I was going to put money on a trump win, because of that aforementioned aspect. Good luck trump, I would have voted for him.

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mike said:

My point of view was and is entirely shaped by the foul vitriol coming out of his mouth.

Christina said:

Mine too.

Isy said:

Mike and Christina, I adore you. 🙂

procreater said:

considering that non of you want a reply – because the reply link has been blacked out, I will add this here.

You say mike that your pov was shaped by vitriol coming from his mouth. But were you always standing next to hime or within earshot of his words? I think not. The only place you got this from was the msm, who were by and large looking after their own interests, and with that in mind, would distort everything, to paint a vulgar picture.

Here is something I have been reading in Zerohedge this morning written byy the dilbert cartoon creater. Its about cognitive dissonance.

“There are two ways for an anti-Trumper to interpret that reality. One option is to accept that if half the public doesn’t see Trump as a dangerous monster, perhaps he isn’t. But that would conflict with a person’s self-image as being smart and well-informed in the first place. When you violate a person’s self-image, it triggers cognitive dissonance to explain-away the discrepancy.

So how do you explain-away Trump’s election if you think you are smart and you think you are well-informed and you think Trump is OBVIOUSLY a monster?

You solve for that incongruity by hallucinating – literally – that Trump supporters KNOW Trump is a monster and they PREFER the monster. In this hallucination, the KKK is not a nutty fringe group but rather a symbol of how all Trump supporters must feel. (They don’t. Not even close.)

In a rational world it would be obvious that Trump supporters include lots of brilliant and well-informed people. That fact – as obvious as it would seem – is invisible to the folks who can’t even imagine a world in which their powers of perception could be so wrong. To reconcile their world, they have to imagine all Trump supporters as defective in some moral or cognitive way, or both.

As I often tell you, we all live in our own movies inside our heads. Humans did not evolve with the capability to understand their reality because it was not important to survival. Any illusion that keeps us alive long enough to procreate is good enough.”

Enjoy

mike said:

Uranus has been squaring its synode with Neptune (17* to 20* Capricorn in the early 1990s) the past year or two and transiting Pluto is conjuncting that point now and for the next several years. The Uranus-Pluto square we’ve suffered through has been greatly affected by both of these planets aspects to the Uranus-Neptune synode. Some of the global elections have twinges of zaniness that only Uranus and Neptune can provide, not to mention our zeitgeist of post-truth.

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Isy said:

The early 90’s in the US is when the frothing upwardly-mobile economy, growing atmosphere of concern for rights, and cultural forward progress started getting kicked back. (Laws protecting women from domestic abuse and rape that had just gotten in a few years earlier, were overwritten or reneged; the cultural momentum of learning about and treating HIV/AIDS went through a trough, and ACT-UP had to get pretty bellicose and intrusive not to lose that whole battle.) Interesting.

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44 and counting said:

Personally I’ve felt that this year’s US elections is now an impossible decision. The lack of choice will eventually lead to an inevitable disastrous conclusion.

With the U.S., if they vote for Hillary they continue to widen the gap between the rich and the poor. The anger from the exploited and oppressed will increase and either get addressed at the next election or possibly wait until 2026 when Neptune hits Aries (which marked the start of the Civil War in 1861).

Alternatively they go with Trump’s hate-filled agenda – start the dismantling early and let everybody go all-out for themselves.

To me, neither is a nice choice but I think they had a chance when someone like Bernie Sanders was proposing a more socialist agenda in the candidate process and they passed him up.

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Isy said:

Oh, WE didn’t pass him up. His campaign, despite an historic media blackout and blatant vote-rigging in the primaries, was still spanking Hilary’s; ultimately, he was forced by his own party, which had already crowned Hilary as their heir presumptive, to choose between being utterly destroyed by them, or conceding to her in return for having certain planks in his platform assimilated into hers (at least in words. I doubt she’d have paid more than lip service to student debt, the social safety net, or anything else that wasn’t a great business opportunity for her friends.)

He was made this offer-you-can’t-refuse twice and refused it. The third time, after a stunning campaign of slanging, name-calling, and making up toxic lies to tell against him, his numbers finally started to slip and he conceded.

It was disgusting. Utterly disgusting. The Democratic “leadership” sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind, as far as I’m concerned; they’re the ones who lost this election.

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Eleonora said:

Yes, whatever the outcome tomorrow, the election itself already had a strong influence. Few things from the secondary progressed chart:

1) SP moon exactly conjunct natal ascendent (Voice of people? Emotional outburst? The Moon rules the 8th house of fears, so there could be more behind this).

2) SP mercury turned direct, entering it’s shadow phase. It did so 2 months ago, it has been retrograde since 1994 (the year of Clinton’s crime bill). It rules DC and MC, therefore it’s about the shift in how the US is perceived.

3) Progressed Sun is in Pisces since 13 years (since the invasion of Iraq) and it will remain there for another 17 years, so there will still be many national identity issues. Actually, it’s all about loosing the identity.

4) Progressed ASC goes 0° Virgo. It is a long progression, of course, suggesting a somewhat more modest approach to life in general. Good for the environment protection.

5) Also important: SP Ceres is at 0° Aries. It entered Aries 2 years ago, but this is very significant, even more so because transiting Neptune conjunct natal Ceres. In personal charts Ceres controls the biorhythm and everything, so here it could be about the vibes.

On its own, the progressed chart is full of the oppositions and squares, just like what you described in the transiting chart. And it seems like there are a lot of beginnings (and endings).

Does somebody know if an eclipse hit any significant planets in this chart, or is about to do so?

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Christina said:

Thank you for that — fascinating — and just to add to some of those points and in answer to your question. Eclipses to the US Sibly chart.

Well, the most recent eclipse at 9° Virgo was opposite the US Ceres, and there’s one coming up in February is at 8° Pisces on that Ceres. These also square the US Uranus. This may emphasise your point about the progressed Ceres. Could also be to do with agriculture — a crisis in farming methods. I think you are right about Ceres in Virgo: it ought to be good.

Then there’s the second eclipse in September which was at 24° Pisces opposite the US Neptune.
I think your point about the Progressed Sun in Neptune is right. The US is having an identity crisis and has been for more than a decade. Without the Soviet Union to define itself against, it all went a bit wobbly. Now with Neptunian Pisces by transit that’s even trickier.

Then the eclipse cycle moves into Aquarius-Leo and pretty much hits all those Aquarian points in the US chart.

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Eleonora said:

Thank you for the explanation!
And yes, Ceres certainly is about the agriculture. There was an exchange student from Berlin, Paulina Unfried, who spent a year in a small village in Minnesota, where she was surrounded by Trump supporters, and she wrote about her experience. Her conclusion was, that you have to live among the cornfields in order to understand those people.

Now, I spent my childhood among the cornfields, and while I still can’t understand why somebody is voting for Trump, I feel like the type of agriculture (or the lack of same) strongly influences the ambience we live in (vibes 🙂 ).

Btw, Ceres progressed from Aquarius to Pisces during the late 20’s. What followed was a huge crisis in agriculture, which led to New Deal and Agricultural Adjustment Act.

Ceres’ previous movements through Pisces and Aquarius were tight connected to cotton, slavery, modernisation of the agriculture…

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Isy said:

Ttwo things to add to this fascinating thread:
on point 4.. I’d say this could be very bad for environmental protection, knowing Trump’s view of food and water as coming from supermarkets rather than the earth. To me, the more modest approach to life in general is about hardship and lean times, as fracking, oil pipelines, and the technologies surrounding them become less regulated, less inspected, and far, FAR more prevalent.

The Agricultural Adjustment Act had an interesting pocket of polcies which (Ceresianly enough) created an artificial commercial structure for corn (maize), and to a lesser extent soy, so that they could be bioengineered and processed without any oversight whatsoever. This created, firstly, an artificial security for corn and soybean farmers, who simultaneously depended on government support for their product, and at the same time utterly resented government interference, because that was the way the laws were written. Then, in time, it led to the development and mass-marketing of bioengineered corn fractions like high-fructose corn syrup and hydrolyzed corn starch, the effects of which we’re seeing in the distiinctive dough-shaped forms of the “corn syrup generation” which has been raised on this crap starting from their time in the womb, and the skyrocketing rates of chronic diseases which have tracked this, along with the increase in what you might call designer pollution (as industries get better at skirting the regs, or destroying them entirely.)

It’s hard — for me, impossible — to view the rest of my lifetime in this country in terms of anything other than despair. I have no idea what might actually be left to emerge from the rubble in 17 years. With so little arable land, potable water, and able-bodied and able-minded people left to handle it, and such a complex and predatory (not to mention bitterly alienated) world to handle it in, I’m struggling to find a rational response that isn’t essentially despair.

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unique_astrology said:

Trump may not hold office for long. The following begins just 5 months after the presidential election.

Here is a period of time I think will be very important for Trump and the country. It is a very strong transit of Saturn as it stations on points in the Trump and Sibly charts, the station being the reason for it’s lengthy involvement.

Jun 25 through October 10 2017. Saturn to Trumps Sun and Moon (conjunct his Moon and opp his Sun – beginning when 1 degree before through 1 degree after exact [in right ascension) and stationing there just 4 days after the total solar eclipse of Aug 21 that spans the contiguous 48 states, is opposite the Sibly Moon and conjoins Trumps Mars and Asc.

During that time that transit Saturn opposes Sibly Mars and squares Sibly Neptune.

Transit Saturn will station opposite Trump’s wife’s progressed Sun at that time also.

Saverne said:

Will be more relaxed when this is ‘done’ (I can’t think of a proper word..) There’s a much needed change and growing up in this culture. Hopefully these transits transform the old patterns for good. It is incredible how different can some states be. In one you regularly see big trucks with confederate flags and if you drive few hours up that’s completely unheard of…

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Acquafortis said:

It seems we still have to go down down the curve….or black hole…

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mimi said:

Am writing this after just hearing the Donald has been elected as the new president of the USA.

The people (the Moon) have spoken. Moon in Aquarius and therefore ruled by Uranus. Once again this planet tricked everyone !!

What I do not understand is why the polls were so very much in favour of Hillary Clinton (the mischievous workings of Neptune ??).

And finally : Mars (Trump) conjunct her Lilith. Lilith is being distroyed by loudmouth Mars.

As for the Americans – I think there is a lesson to be learned in the 4 years ahead – he is a Gemini and believe me what he said during this campaign to get the crowds to vote for him will be obsolete the minute he enters the White House.

mimi

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Knef said:

I don’t trust polls anymore since the UK election 2015. What happened is that the silent Trump supporters were out in full force.

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Isy said:

Actually, neither.

Here’s another head-spinning
oddity of US elections.

The popular vote is nothing more than a popularity contest. The president is actually chosen by the Electoral College. This is (hang on, it’s not simple):

– Created state-by-state and party-by-party.
– Both parties choose their electoral representatives in-house; that is, they are not elected by the people, they are chosen by party leaders, and they are typically people who are considered good dogs-bodies or are massive donors; they are inevitably people the party feels well in control of.

– Each state thus has two pools of electoral college representatives: Republican and Democrat.

– In some states, other parties may have electoral college representatives too. Whether this matters depends on the next point.

– Each state decided for itself, in laws laid down some time ago, how to apportion those electoral college representatives for the presidential vote.
* in some, the state allows the electoral college representatives to decide how to vote for themselves.
* in others, the state requires the electoral college representatives to vote according to the popular vote.

Okay, now we get to the presidential elections. (I know — “we’re not there YET??”)

– The people cast their votes. This is where it gets fun, because the electoral college — according to the usa.gov website — is not actually supposed to vote until those popular votes are in. (Cf. the process listed above, where the electoral college reps are actually supposed to entertain the popular vote.)

– The *party* of the candidate who wins a given state’s popular vote, then gets to put its own electoral college representatives into action. The losing party’s candidate’s electoral college representatives go home.

– State by state, under different sets of rules, the electoral college representatives cast their votes. These votes are NOT by secret ballot; they are logged and verified and re-logged and signed for and sent off to Congress and, according to that same crazy website the US gov maintains to explain itself to everyone, is not actually signed, sealed, delivered, and truly valid, until about 2 WEEKS before the inauguration.

– Somehow, magically, the electoral college results come in before all the votes are counted. It’s amazing how they do that. It’s like they already know…

– Thus, the electoral college can choose one president, even though the popular vote favored another president.

The popular vote favored Hilary Clinton (by a small margin, only low 6 figures last I checked, but that’s larger than many English cities.) The people of these seriously Ununited States actually did prefer to have the slow-murder Clinton instead of the mass-slaughter Trump.

The electoral college, conversely and contrariwise, chose Donald Trump. Even though Clinton stumped for an awful lot of Republican candidates (which poisoned her with some of the Dem base), the Republicans and some of her own party turned on her. I think the Republican side, at least, was thinking about that verification process; they don’t like to be seen to be breaking ranks, far more than they don’t like to be seen doing anything illegal, immoral, or fattening.

And that, ladies and gentlebeings, is the real story behind the world-class ball-busting sanity-wrecking COCKUP that was the 2016 election.

There are anti-emetics in that cupboard over there. Help yourself.

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Rollan McCleary said:

I will paste what I have just sent to the Tyl site in America. This presents a rather different perspective from any here

I have for some time been of the opinion that Hillary could and would win. Not by the landslide many pollsters had come to imagine, more like by a narrow margin after the kind of struggle we have witnessed. Hillary’s chart, whatever its time and there has always been a problem with that – I assumed 8.2 am which seemed favourable for this season – is a difficult natal pattern. Still, I imagined she could make it and because (though I never really studied it or bothered to apply arcs etc) Trump’s chart never looked like an obvious winner unless you wanted to stress his 29 Leo rising. This undeniably is conjunct Regulus the king, fame and power star. But it’s not this factor has been emphasized at this time unless you care to say from tr Mars at 29 Cap by quincunx.

Certainly the Donald has provided a national and international shock which is shown, but again not very exactly or as strongly as might be supposed, by surprising tr Uranus at 20 Aries in retrograde away from sextile his natal sun at 22 Gemini.

What has happened is strange indeed. Trump has won with Jupiter conjunct of all things his natal Chiron. I wonder if anyone has comments on this?! Perhaps he will heal some American wounds but all said and done this is his chart!

I am inclined to suspect along with various comments I have already read or heard from a variety of sources from Chinese astrologers to would-be Christian prophets, that America and the Donald is in for a distinctly bumpy ride, all sorts of unexpected troubles may arise and Trump may even regret his new position.

I do find one thing of real interest. Asteroid Cyrus conjuncts Trump’s Jupiter and trines his Uranus. This exquisitely fits with what some would-be Christian prophets in America and even here in Australia have been claiming in recent months and weeks. God they say (remember the conjunction to “religious” Jupiter), has chosen Trump as he once chose Cyrus to save the Jews although Cyrus was a gentile. God, they say has revealed to them that though Trump is brash and many things less than admirable, he is at least fearless and as such he has been and is going to be God’s wrecking ball against the political correctness which is undermining western democracy and society and is so timid and accommodating it is refusing to defend legitimate Christian and Jewish interests and even oppose them. (UNESCO even recently denied Jewish connection to their temple in favour of Muslim claims whereas Trump has said he will recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel)

Also in this “Cyrus” type connection there is the case of, Saaed Abedini. He was one of the five American prisoners in Iran kept for years in horrific conditions little protested by America and not mentioned by Clinton who is thick as thieves with various Muslim advisers especially Huma. Saeed told Huffington Post only a few days ago he was encouraging Christians to vote for Trump (many have hesitated to do so) on the understanding he should and would win. He alleged Jesus had revealed to him while in jail that Trump would one day be president. He interestingly mentioned that Trump, unlike Hillary, had often referred to his impossible situation and even given his family a gift of 10K. So I think here we begin to see the outline of our Cyrus/Jupiter/Uranus connection although I still suspect all sorts of negative things could be hitting Trump and America yet.

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Christina said:

Thanks for this Rollan. Despite the dire astrology, I thought (hoped) Hillary might squeak through the keyhole too, and as Mimi points out: isn’t it interesting how wrong the polls were — even Nate Silver’s? She never had very good aspects — but then nor does Trump. So you have to ask yourself, how much of a prize is this?

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Isy said:

The polls were correct: Hilary did win the popular vote, not by a large margin but by a distinct one.

She did not win the votes cast by the power-players in both parties. That’s what’s so interesting. If I were sufficiently motivated, I’d look up her chart for the week leading up to voting day and look for signs of getting stabbed in the back.

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isabellium said:

Correction on the electoral college issue:

The so-called “electoral college votes” that were counted, were not actual votes. They were *presumptive* votes based on that state’s particular laws about which electoral college (Dem or Republican) got activated by their population. Thus, R states are more likely to have lower populations, but they still get to have their electoral votes counted by state. Thus, the *presumptive* count is weighted R, and somehow the word “presumptive” gets left off and forgotten. (Because this isn’t confusing enough.)

The *actual* electors don’t vote until Dec 19. That means that some electors may choose to vote differently from how their *presumptive* votes were counted.

We may not, actually, have a Trump presidency.

This is what I’m putting my attention on. Trying to persuade the electoral college to swing their votes to match the popular vote, which would not leave it with Trump.

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Madeira said:

They didn’t do it for Al Gore in 2000. Not sure why they’d do it for HRC in 2016. The mess and the betrayal from the Electoral college (potentially) violating their contract with the American people is *truly* too horrific to contemplate. You would bring the anarchy which you fear from Trump. To use a literary reference. You’d be like Voldemort, creating the power that is Harry Potter, by seeking to destroy him.

Perhaps another allusion, more upmarket? How about W. Somerset Maugham’s, “The road to Samarra”:

“A merchant in Baghdad sends his servant to the marketplace for provisions. Soon afterward, the servant comes home white and trembling and tells him that in the marketplace he was jostled by a woman, whom he recognized as Death, and she made a threatening gesture. Borrowing the merchant’s horse, he flees at great speed to Samarra, a distance of about 75 miles (125 km), where he believes Death will not find him. The merchant then goes to the marketplace and finds Death, and asks why she made the threatening gesture. She replies, “That was not a threatening gesture, it was only a start of surprise. I was astonished to see him in Baghdad, for I had an appointment with him tonight in Samarra.”

My tl;dr point is this. Wait for the midterm elections. Our congress and its checks and balances will put a (legal) halt to his policies.

Isy said:

Ah, I think I found the keyhole to peek through: “Trump has won with Jupiter conjunct of all things his natal Chiron.”

Chiron and I go way back… It’s probably the defining feature of my chart, so I’m going to think about this, with the first glimmer of light I’ve seen this whole time.

Trump’s wound is around his ego, his sense of his own worth in the world, especially in regard to women. (First and 7th houses empty, both almost exactly (2 minutes!) on junctions between signs. He is a man whose sense of self and other has no definitive sign in Placidus. I find that very telling.

The crucial fact about what creates a true narcissist is this: Their sense of their own worth is nonexistent. They surround this gaping void in the very center of themselves with a whirlwind of egotism, hiding the hole and creating a very distracting show of arrogance and greed (whether for power/control, energy, money, sex, whatever mimics their life-force — or all three, as with Drumpf.) The whirlwind is effective in sucking in victims for them to feed on (many confuse arrogance with confidence, after all) and spitting out or simply repelling anyone who might see further in.

Moreover, giving it his peculiarly sexually-charged, violent touch, the planet on his Asc is Mars, and the dwarf planet conj (7 minutes!) his Chiron is Juno.

He knows for a fact that he’s not up to the job of being president. He’s not even up to the job of being a competent human being. This wound is getting ripped open by that sweet, lovely, expansive Jupiter, knocking him right in the screaming heart of his void. How I love Jupiter right now, that generous old dear!!

Mars and Pluto both in his 12th. I’ve long thought that if he wound up in office, he’d soon after wind up in prison. Fingers crossed. Then we have to deal with Pence, which could be harder, because he imitates a sane person so much more convincingly…

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mimi said:

I think it would be wise to wait until – let’s say 2 years from now – to see what Donald Trump is really like as a president of the USA. He has no experience as a politician whatsoever and is likely to get into serious trouble.

By the way, Christina, this morning I had an absurd image in my head of Donald and Melania Trump doing a state-visit to for instance England.
Can you imagine Donald and Melania Trump at the dinnertable with Queen Elisabeth and Prince Philips being oh, so well-mannered and civilised ????
Life is absurd these days, don’t you agree ?

mimi

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Christina said:

I can’t stop contrasting Trump with Obama. It’s just so stark.

Obama is a handsome, graceful, intelligent, educated, considerate, well-bred, funny man, with an intelligent wife and partner.

Trump is, well,grossier, unverschämt, and grossolano — with a trophy.

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mimi said:

Oops, I meant Prince Philip of course.
Sorry, Your Royal Highness.

mimi

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Marcy Bennett said:

Funny that – Stock Market down over 800 points last night on news of Trumps imminent presidency. It’s surging to over +172 points as I write. Israel is safe with Trump and we won’t have a One World Government. God Bless America! (which no one dared say or write for a very long time). Transiting asteroid Hillary 16 Cancer went into USA’s 8th house of death last night.

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Christina said:

Actually President Obama says God Bless America quite frequently.

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Knef said:

What makes you think Trump isn’t a puppet himself? Well, let’s hope your great white hope won’t disappoint you.

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Isy said:

Well put 🙂

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Rollan McCleary said:

Maybe we should all take note of the following interesting comment sent to the Tyl site to which I said I sent my own reflections re Trump’s odd Chironic win.
“I’ve studied astrology seriously since 1975, but it’s been a very slow process….. However, the one thing I believe is always right every single time is the transit of Saturn through the horoscope. This is the structure of one’s life. This was the subject of an astrological article I read in about 1970 Basically the article stated that when Saturn transits houses I through III, the native would withdraw and redefine himself. When Saturn transits houses IV through VI, the personality assembled in the previous quadrant “gains experience.” When it transits houses VII through IX, the personality “acts upon experience.” Transiting Saturn in houses X through XII is when the person “reaps the rewards” of the efforts he has put out during the cycle. BUT when Saturn transits the ascendant, it’s like hitting a wall in some ways. However, what’s really happening is that the personality has exhausted itself. It’s gone as far as it can go. It has to withdraw and renew.

Saturn is about Timing. I have always supported the circa 8 AM birth time for Mrs. Clinton and I believe I have been vindicated. In late 2014, Saturn crossed her ascendant. I knew then that she would never be President. (What I’m wondering is that if or when she is indicted, the act that will really convict her is something she did at that time. I think that was when she destroyed all her records pertaining to Benghazi.) If she had been able to win the nomination in 2008 or 2012, she might have been able to win, but Obama, whose Saturn was also well placed at the time, had been drilled in the same kind of political tricks that she had been, and managed to turn the tables on her. If she had been smart, she would have stayed out of the spotlight after that, far away from the eye of the law, but she could not accept that she had gone as far as she could go and by devious means intimidated her way to the nomination of her Party. Among her collateral damage was Bill. The hopefully forgotten crimes of her husband were brought to light again. The spin was off. How could they condemn Trump and Weiner without condemning Bill, too? His fortunes continue to slide and Saturn will hit the nadir of his chart in late 2017. Will he go to jail or meet his maker?

But for me this election is a big vindication. I say is doesn’t matter what asteroid is where, or what solar arc is happening, or where the benefics are; if Saturn is in the first quadrant of your chart, you ain’t gonna be elected President. Nothing can go outside the parameters set by Saturn….”.

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mimi said:

This makes a lot of sense; I like this explanation a lot and will forever remember this when looking at horoscopes.

As for Hillary intimidating her way to the nomination : maybe she did, maybe not, but I honestly believe that Bernie Sanders would not have had any chance against this loudmouth Trump.
I think Bernie Sanders is too polite to battle against such a bully. Trump would have blown him away and the devastation would have even been greater in the Democratic camp.

I think Hillary Clinton did a good job and don’t forget : it was not only she who decided who would run for president for the Democratic Party. The filthy remarks Trump made about her during this campaign were not fair and very much below the belt.

mimi
mimi

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Isy said:

I didn’t ever think Bernie polite. He’s way too good at stinging one-liners to be polite. He is kind, given no reason to be otherwise. 50 years in the Senate? He could have taken Trump to the cleaners. The people who abandoned the Dems when Bernie was trashed out, fled to Trump, because voting for Business As Usual was unbearable.

That’s the crux. Bernie inhaled people from other political parties. Clinton couldn’t even hang onto her own party’s power-base.

Hence, she lost the electoral college even though she won the popular vote.

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Christina said:

As you know, I am very keen on the Saturn cycle in mundane astrology. It’s very reliable in national charts–as long as you have the right one.

In the Sibly chart used here, Saturn is on the ascendant. More on this later

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Rollan McCleary said:

I’ve discovered something else we didn’t know. Republicanism is conservative and Saturn ruled. Apparently there has never been an occasion since 1854 when the party was founded that when Saturn was, as now, in Capricorn that a Republican has not been in or come to office. Not necessarily we non-Americans but certainly all American astrologers ought to have been aware of this and expressed at least caution about Hillary’s chances; but amazingly almost all American astrologers took it that Hillary must win. (An astro friend in Frisco did point out to me a very favourable Trump solar arc for election time but I must admit as a sole factor I paid little attention, I prefer collections of evidence).

never even studied Trump’s chart much because it didn’t look as though he was very likely to win top prize, I saw no obvious factors – I still find that tr Jupiter conjunct Chiron at victory odd to unprecedented – and so I pretty much assumed that with a few positive if demanding aspects Hillary must win by default. But I was wrong again…..The Magi Society which has its own special researches and theories going claims this. If tr Saturn is aspecting towards Pluto that is failure and loss. No matter that Hillary had a transit trine of Saturn to her Pluto which might look like winning with effort, it couldn’t mean that. The answer was no. But by contrast the same society is strong on the idea (which runs against the common view) that Chiron aspected by benefics can be very positive – for women they even call it the Cinderella factor and associate it with romance and successful marriage. So maybe Jupiter/Chiron isn’t so bad for Trump after all; but I wait to be convinced. I think he could yet find he has the gift of a poisoned chalice and experience his position very bruising. We shall see!

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Christina said:

I will put up the inauguration chart soon — and we can discuss that. Chiron plays a big role there too.

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mike said:

We discuss the election of Trump and place secondary emphasis on the electorate that put him in that role. Trump’s natal chart was the better match for the nation, for better or worse.

Saturn is typically perceived as a malefic influence, but Saturn transits can be very positive regardless of angle, house, or quadrant, depending on the inclination of the individual, with the self-serving having the more difficult transits. Structure-foundation is essential to any growth and development, whether for the individual or the collective. Saturn can be very rewarding for those that work diligently for the good of all.

Saturn’s transit of the Sibly Asc and first house may have more to do with Trump’s election as representative of the USA’s persona and the needs of the collective. Is the USA self-serving? Is Trump self-serving? We get what we deserve.

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Eleonora said:

Americans voted for evil, while giving the possibility to choose between… two evils. What a surprise that we have an evil outcome. Sanders was an option, and many political analysts warned that he had a better chance in beating Trump. Democrats betrayed their followers, because they expected them to be forced to vote for the corrupt, interventionist Clinton, only to escape Trump. A mistake, obviously.

As I was 5 or so, Stephen Kings’ „IT“ was released, and I still remember we kids watching it secretly. No wonder, the old master of horror has his comeback now, alongside with the movie remake and with his most prominent symbol – that smiling, yet children-murdering clown.

I tried very hard to be as neutral as possible about these elections, what didn’t come naturally to me (despite the moon in Gemini), because of my deep personal dislike for Hilary. Since there are very few people, who I could possibly despise more than her. I never will be able (nor I want!) to forget her playing God, destroying my life and everything what was built since for so many generations.
Not the destruction of my wonderful, pacifistic, free, multicultural Novi Sad, 1999. Not the blood and oil in Danube, cluster bombs on civilians. Not my friend’s 6 years old sister, urinating blood every night. That city was not created for war, it was created for beauty only.

Now, while the healing Pluto is exactly trining my ascendant, I can’t feel anything but release for the moment. This may be somewhat misleading, since it’s not the vengeful Pluto I’m consuming. It’s not the violental Mars, nor it’s Jupiter’s justice or Saturnian’s payback descending upon this lady. It’s Neptunian force only, which has this power of washing away. The Jupiter transiting her Neptune, and transiting Neptune coming closer to her Moon during the next years, I cannot help but pitying this old, stumbling lady, drugged up to the eyeballs in order to control her aching body and soul.

And indeed, Novi Sad itself has Neptune in late Pisces, the same degree as Hilarys Moon. Now Neptune is approaching the both, it will finally take her away where she belongs – to that ocean of eternal oblivion.

And that is exactly the thing, of which she is most afraid.

Meanwhile, Novi Sad awaits its Neptune return. And it is still there, beautiful and dreamy as ever.

In Stephen King’s story, the clown returns once again, after 28 years (which is one Saturn return). The kids (who are adults now), have to face it again. But at some point, the Clown transforms into a giant spider. And as I watched the movie, I stopped being afraid of IT when it did so. Because an open evil is easier to deal with, than a smiling, yet murdering clown.

And so, the result of this election was not „yes“ to Trumps racism, but „no“ to Clinton’s hypocrisy. And let’s be honest, nothing comes out of nothing, and this reactionary movement didn’t come out of the blue. Clinton supported wars in Iraq, in Lybia, in Syria. She was among people who destabilised a huge territory, leading to refugees waves and rise of the right-wing-movements in the EU. So how can she be the solution? Four or even eight years of her as president would lead to even more radical sort of Trump after her. Americans were basically forced to choose between the symptoms and the actual illness. Nothing good could have come out of that. Trump will destroy what Obama built, and I am afraid of the dark times to come.

But perhaps will at least the democrats, the leftist and the philanthropists finally find the heart, which they have lost long ago.

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Christina said:

Why do you hold Hillary Clinton responsible for NATO’s bombing of Novi Sad in 1999?

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Eleonora said:

“Responsible” in what sense? She was politically very active First Lady at that time. She isn’t Laura Bush, she was a part of the closest circle.

Her vote for Iraq war, Lybia fiasco, calling for more aggressive policy in Syria, make those, who portray her as a hawk and one of the main decission makers in white house in 1999, believable.

I understand that you like her! She certainly has some charisma and she is educated. And then there is Trump. 🙂

But as I said, not “responsible”, this is a wrong word. She is rather a symbol for something, what happened long time ago. So long ago, that it feels like previous life. Do I reflect too much uppon her? Perheps. If so, I’m not the only one, for most people see her as a typical hawk. (Which is exactly why she lost the elections.)

Sorry for that very long comment, I sometimes can’t stop writing 🙂

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Christina said:

Never apologise for making a long comment, Eleonora. You are welcome here.

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Eleonora said:

@Christina
Thank you! And I need a bit place to respond to that.

@isabellium
While the quote is good, the article is misleading… I know it wasn’t your attention, but I don’t want to let it here uncommented.

The war in Bosnia had nothing to do with Christianity vs Islam. There are always people who, for different reasons, try to make it look so. But really, there is more religious tolerance in everyday life in Bosnia than elsewhere in Europe.

That being said, it’s true that there was a very small islamistic circle in Bosnia, and that the west decided to support them, instead of the liberal or leftist leaders. However, more than 70% of the population were not even religious before the war. With Bosnian Serbs, it was not religious hatred, not even nationalistic – it was social hatred. Which is the worst possible, and the most pathological hatred one can have. It was very similar in Rwanda, where you had the same phenomena of a nation split in two, due to imposed social differences.

The other factor was of course the WW2. It has been only 45 years since then and the scars left by the Ustasha Regime and other crimes were still fresh, especially among the Bosnian Serbs. And the West pushing for a reactionary elitarist and Islamist with a dark past, like Alija Izetbegovic, for the place of the first Bosnian president, didn’t help to calm down the spirits and save that country. Police waving with Ustasha symbols and laughing about the killed children at the concentration camp Sisak (for example), while at the same time telling the Bosnian Serbs that they are „paranoid“ – wasn’t particularly helpful either. But every movement which promised to break Yugoslavia into pieces was supported – no matter how reactionary, violent or even outright fascisic.

Karadzic and Izetbegovic even formed a coalition to topple the socialistic order… and started the war against each other, only few weeks afterwards. Contrary to nationalistic belief, there is no such thing like „nationalists all countries unite“. As soon as they reach their common goal – to overthrow the regime in Sarajevo, or Belgrade, or in Bruxelles – they turn against each other. (It is not going to be different with Putin and Trump).

Finally, there is also the crucial role of the of the Serbian state security. This is a too long story to tell it here, but it seems they did want to totally destroy (kill or deport) all Muslims in the Eastern Bosnia, probably since it’s an enormously important geostrategical point… Tukey or Serbia – whoever controls the Eastern Bosnia and the Sandzak, controls the Western Balkans. And Western Balkans is the gateway to Western Europe, or to Asia, or to Eastern Europe (depending on perspective). Ask refugees. Or any significant drug dealer. Or Mr. Davutoglu.

So 30% – 50% of all Muslim civilian victims were murdered in very first three months of the war, in that rather small region. No one of importance was ever convicted for those suffering. The west was just fine with it (despite some crocodile tears after the genocide in Srebrenica), since it enabled them to get rid of all Serbs too close to Adria (Lika etc.), simple out of the fear, Russia may instrumentalize them one day and get the success to the sea. The problems occured only after Milosevic got rid of Jovica Stanisic – and it had nothing to do with the war in Bosnia or with Islam.

isabellium said:

Hilary was an extremely involved First Lady. In terms of his work, Bill certainly considered her his equal and took her suggestions and points of view very seriously. So, to say that she couldn’t have been involved because she was “just” first lady, is a bit ahistorical and illogical, if you’ll pardon my tactlessness. (I’m still reeling, and my tact fell off the chair and rolled out of reach.) This article summarizes just how closely she was involved with Bill’s decision to use NATO to pound Serbia and why she thought it was a good thing.

Just FTR, the phrase “defend our way of life”, in any language, makes me hack up hairballs.

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Eleonora said:

*Yugoslavia, not Serbia – Montenegro was bombed as well, and so was Vojvodina. If putting the emphasis on Kosovo to be an autonomous region in Yugoslavia (as it was done by the media) and not just a part of Serbia – then Vojvodina was just the same. If Kosovo suffered the loss of the autonomy under Milosevic, Vojvodina suffered the same. Or, as Tišma put it – they bombed Hungarians and Slovaks in Vojvodina to protect Albanians in Kosovo.

“Just FTR, the phrase “defend our way of life”, in any language, makes me hack up hairballs.”

Exactly. And we never understood, how on earth, the support of the criminal UCK is corresponding to “defend our way of life“. If they ever bothered to provide the peaceful, democratic opposition with the same amount of help, Milosevic would have never even came to power. Instead, they were backing him, all along. He and Clinton were buddies during the wars in Croatia and Bosnia. They dumped him only after he himself dumped Jovica Stanisic, who – ironically – was the main orchestrator of nearly all crimes committed in Croatia + Bosnia. It was only by then (4 years after the wars!), that removing Milosevic and protecting „our way of life“ (which means „our man in Belgrade“) suddenly became an „urgent“ mission, at any costs.

But even by then, they didn’t do so by supporting the opposition in Novi Sad or elsewhere, but by bombing them… and providing Milosevic with a wonderful opportunity to call out martial law and arrest or kill, or at least discredit all oppositional leaders and journalists.

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isabellium said:

“Americans were basically forced to choose between the symptoms and the actual illness.”

Best metaphor yet. Thank you for naming it so precisely.

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Christina said:

The other really huge astrological confab this month is the square between Jupiter in Libra and Pluto in Capricorn. It perfects in the final 10 days of November.

Jupiter in Libra looks possibly like big, big lawsuits. Trump is due in court on November 28 to face a class action law suit.

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isabellium said:

I’ve wondered if both T and C would wind up in prison or hospital before long. Or possibly both.

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Iris said:

Reading this thread, I keep thinking about Eris. How she was so enraged at not being invited to the party she sowed discord that changed history.
That seems to express the feelings of the marginalised workers pretty well.
As Mike said, the electorate is in this too.

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anna said:

I was telling my husband that after Hillary lost the election, I felt that I was losing both my parents all over again. I lost my mom and dad within six months of each other this past year, and now I am losing both Hillary and Obama. The next morning I read an analyst expressing himself in the exact same terms. Hillary is our mother. Again, all your interpretations of her chart ( I am talking of the people commenting) take place within your own frame of mind and ideological constraints.

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Bob said:

My charts do not favor Hillary for January 6.

https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/key-dates.html

“January 6, 2017

The Congress meets in joint session to count the electoral votes. Congress may pass a law to change this date.

The Vice President, as President of the Senate, presides over the count and announces the results of the Electoral College vote. The President of the Senate then declares which persons, if any, have been elected President and Vice President of the United States.”

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Bob said:

For the record, Unique_astrology is my screen name. My name is Robert but I prefer Bob.

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Bob said:

No idea yet if the time suggests impeachment beginnings or the result of the same. I prefer it would be the latter as it could indicate that the previous year T had been kept from dealing with much else (us). If he was tied up (and I wish that would be literally) for most of 2019 it could be because of a shift in the Congress after the 2018 mid-terms.

http://i.imgur.com/BwT97AP.gif

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Bob said:

Charts showing Donald’s and Donald Jr.’s charts engaged by the total solar eclipse in August 2017 and the Saturn and Pluto conjunction in January of 2020. It looks like a family affair.

http://imgur.com/a/UyQXj

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Christina said:

Thank you for pointing out that eclipse: makes me fell slightly hopeful! One thing is clear about the Donald: he likes to keep it in the family. However, the 2020 stuff also affects the US chart, so let us hope he is not bringing the whole country down with him.

Reading up on his history, I am astonished that he was even allowed to run for high office. In most western democracies, you can’t stand for public office if you’ve been bankrupted. Also surely the Democrats ought to be questioning the legality of FBI and Wikileaks involvement in this election. trNeptune in his 7th might mean some shady partnerships.

Malcolm Gladwell has suggested that he will be in prison soon and, speaking astrologically, this does not look entirely unlikely — unless the White House turns out to be “like a prison” for him, which is quite possible too. Trump is a rule-breaker and the White House is all about rules. Saturn tr the Moon could be this move. AND his progressed Moon is on his native Saturn and will move into his 12th for a 30 month stint soon. If I were advising his enemies, I would suggest they re-examine the court cases of 1990 — his divorce and the case of the illegal immigrants working on Trump Tower.

It’s extremely significant that his Sun has progressed into Virgo 0’16, now — after thirty years in Leo and recently several years conjunct Regulus and the ASC. Clearly Sun in the 12th for 30 years has not kept him out of the public eye!! Indeed it has made him part of the collective unconscious — I wonder how many people have Trump appear in their dreams. Also Jupiter is right on his Chiron right now — very interesting indeed. Maybe this favours the maverick, outsider interpretation of Chiron — or he is feeling exposed.

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unique_astrology said:

http://imgur.com/a/JrmiD

The charts for the 20 eclipses during Jan 20, 2017 through Jan 20 2021 located to the White House.

After the album has loaded scroll to the bottom, click on the 3 dots to the right, click on “Download Post”. The album will be downloaded in a zip file. Right click it and click on “Extract All”. The charts will be opened with funny names but I have numbered them in the order in which they occur. Just right click on them and rename them to something you will recognize like the month , date, and year maybe ( Feb 10 17 ).

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unique_astrology said:

Could Kaine become president?

Locating Kaine’s chart to the White House and placing the Aug 21, 2017 solar eclipse around it produces a very active chart with eclipse Pluto on his MC, eclipse Uranus on his ASC, and eclipse Jupiter square the MC and eclipse Pluto. He has natal Jupiter on the DESC in longitude.

Just remembered Kaine’s natal Mars is there too. It is at 287°51. Does he blow up in a massive explosion?

http://imgur.com/X0vvOy6

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unique_astrology said:

Something big for the country may happen then but I do not think it will be Kaine gaining the presidency. Just wishful thinking by a tired mind grasping at straws.

My brain must have short circuited from overwork and shortened sleep since the election. Their is a chain of command to replace the president and it would have to go through Pence and Paul Ryan and the Republican party before it got to him.

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